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Post by nobody on Jul 5, 2013 20:53:10 GMT -5
Now seems like a good time to discuss how the forum splits its various game topics up.
here are my thoughts on it. 1st off I think that the current system is not good at all, and people have gotten used to it, but that doesn't mean it should stay the way it is (much like how the old boards were fine, but had plenty of room for improvement) a genre based segregation has a lot of issues especially when you consider all the cross genre games. but even if you were to keep the genre based system I think it could be sorted in a more effective way that helps limit games fitting into multiple categories. for example have 1 group for competitive games (fighting, sports, racers etc) not all of those would necessarily be competitive, but even the less competitive versions of them are similar enough that they wouldnt fit into another group. then you would have action, adventure, and those type of games which would include action RPGs, and another group for more tactical games like strategy and sims, and turn based games including more traditional JRPGs. then have another category for shooters. 1st and 3rd person shooters. and then probably some other misc things. the biggest problem with this system is the 3rd person shooter. a lot of 3rd person shooters are more than just 3rd person shooters. like MGS4 which many would consider not a shooter at all. generally first person games have a heavy focus on shooting, however 3rd person games have more freedom to do more action and often balance an action/adventure game with shooting and it blurs the line a lot.
another way to do it is based on the type of game. by that I mean like "indie" "arcade" "AAA/retail" or "F2P" the advantage of that is that there is a very clear cut separation what goes where. the problem imo is that it is a bit vague. I think it is great to have a section dedicated to indie games, but having a AAA/Retail categories is way too broad imo.
Honestly what I think is best is the 3rd choice, which is sort of like how it was before with consoles. I know it was moved away from that style because you didnt want to be viewed as a pro Sony forum (even though you guys pretty much are) but I think that PC should have its own section, not just for PC games, but to talk about all other PC related stuff that isn't directly tied to games. things like steam, misc applications, building PCs, PC troubleshooting etc. I also think that handhelds should have their own sections either together or individually (probably best to have them together since its a fairly small forum in general) and then have a sub forum to that for mobile/tablet. I also think that Nintendo console is distinct enough to warrant its own forum. especially since starting next gen things will go back to most games being for ps4/xbox one but not wii u. We could either have general discussion be including the 2 main consoles, or have it as its own thing. so to sum that last part up basically split it into "general" "consoles" (maybe combine the 1st 2) "Wii U" "PS Vita/3DS" ->Subforum "Mobile" "PC"
anyways thats my thoughts which I think is enough to at least get a disscussion going. I have 1 other major thing semi related but I think that needs its own topic as well. Will make that shortly.
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Post by Six on Jul 6, 2013 14:36:39 GMT -5
Now seems like a good time to discuss how the forum splits its various game topics up. here are my thoughts on it. 1st off I think that the current system is not good at all, and people have gotten used to it, but that doesn't mean it should stay the way it is (much like how the old boards were fine, but had plenty of room for improvement) a genre based segregation has a lot of issues especially when you consider all the cross genre games. but even if you were to keep the genre based system I think it could be sorted in a more effective way that helps limit games fitting into multiple categories. for example have 1 group for competitive games (fighting, sports, racers etc) not all of those would necessarily be competitive, but even the less competitive versions of them are similar enough that they wouldnt fit into another group. then you would have action, adventure, and those type of games which would include action RPGs, and another group for more tactical games like strategy and sims, and turn based games including more traditional JRPGs. then have another category for shooters. 1st and 3rd person shooters. and then probably some other misc things. the biggest problem with this system is the 3rd person shooter. a lot of 3rd person shooters are more than just 3rd person shooters. like MGS4 which many would consider not a shooter at all. generally first person games have a heavy focus on shooting, however 3rd person games have more freedom to do more action and often balance an action/adventure game with shooting and it blurs the line a lot. When the current divisions were made we knew they weren't perfect and that games could fit into multiple divisions. It was a "put the game into what might be its best fit" scenario. The problem I have with how the game plays is that some games have multiple viewpoints: DX:HR is FPS most of the time but also spends a lot of time as TPS. TWD switches among perspectives frequently too. You're running into the same problems of where to put it because it could be in multiple places. another way to do it is based on the type of game. by that I mean like "indie" "arcade" "AAA/retail" or "F2P" the advantage of that is that there is a very clear cut separation what goes where. the problem imo is that it is a bit vague. I think it is great to have a section dedicated to indie games, but having a AAA/Retail categories is way too broad imo. I'd agree that it's vague, and I'm not sure basing it on price and/or budget is the best thing. I wouldn't go for this one. Honestly what I think is best is the 3rd choice, which is sort of like how it was before with consoles. I know it was moved away from that style because you didnt want to be viewed as a pro Sony forum (even though you guys pretty much are) but I think that PC should have its own section, not just for PC games, but to talk about all other PC related stuff that isn't directly tied to games. things like steam, misc applications, building PCs, PC troubleshooting etc. I also think that handhelds should have their own sections either together or individually (probably best to have them together since its a fairly small forum in general) and then have a sub forum to that for mobile/tablet. I also think that Nintendo console is distinct enough to warrant its own forum. especially since starting next gen things will go back to most games being for ps4/xbox one but not wii u. We could either have general discussion be including the 2 main consoles, or have it as its own thing. so to sum that last part up basically split it into "general" "consoles" (maybe combine the 1st 2) "Wii U" "PS Vita/3DS" ->Subforum "Mobile" "PC" anyways thats my thoughts which I think is enough to at least get a disscussion going. I have 1 other major thing semi related but I think that needs its own topic as well. Will make that shortly. The thing about dividing it by consoles again is that we run into the same problems as before we were trying to step away from. Since the initial user-base is Sony-heavy those boards get more attention, meaning that any new users who aren't using Sony consoles see slow or inactive boards for other consoles. Dividing the games by genres made the fact that the people here had at least one console in common less obvious. The other reason for dividing by genres was because of multi-platform titles. Skyrim is playable on three platforms, and there's no reason why everyone who plays it can't talk in the same thread. You can have one in a genre board, or three threads for each console board. There's really no reason why these players can't talk to each other about the same game, but an X360 player probably won't bother going into the PS3 board to talk about the game, or vice versa. What about getting rid of the divisions entirely? It would get rid of the division problems and would mean less moving between boards. If there was something "unique" about the game it could always be tagged in the thread title or in the OP. There would be no worries about genre or console because they would all be in the same place. Heck, if you wanted to make sure more info was visible on the threads page, we can see if that plugin that adds thread meta data would be useful. People could add descriptions like "PS3 exclusive, Indie game". |
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Post by nobody on Jul 6, 2013 15:48:47 GMT -5
Not sure what TWD is.
With the changes I mentioned DX HR would fit into 1 category. he action, stealth etc category. 1st or 3rd person is irrelevant. basically anything real time action oriented game that isn't a pure shooter would go into 1 group.
and like you said you knew it wasn't perfect. so all I am saying is now is a good time to open discussion and reevaluate what is the best solution.
its not about price. an indie game feels drastically different from a high budget AAA title. though arcade and indie could probably be rolled into 1
WHAT!? that isn't what I said at all. I never said anything as to why SN was made in the 1st place. I said that the forums are/were very sony heavy, and you switched from the old division to appear less sony heavy.
thats why I was suggesting not having a "sony" board. you combine all of the consoles together, and you combine all the handhelds together. sony isn't its own board, but it is part of them. its not split between which company you went with, but what style of gaming instead. meaning consoles, pc, and handhelds. each of those 3 is very distinct from one another and deserves some separation. plus they are distinct enough that many people likely have at least 1 device from each of those. and I felt that the wii U was a distinct enough platform that it could (not should) have its own section.
Did you just skim through my post? the whole point of my suggestion was that you wouldnt be splitting 360 and ps3, they would be on a shared board. there wouldn't be any separation. the only that that would be separated out would be the PC. you could have 1 topic in the general gaming section for skyrim discussion in general, and you could have another topic in the PC section focusing more on the PC related stuff, like mods and that sort of thing that only applies to the PC gamers.
My entire idea behind the way it would be split was so there was no specific section for the MS, or Sony "fanboys" so that no matter which side someone chose they would still all be mixed together. it wouldnt be split by the arbitrary choice someone made in which company to back, but in the more general sense of how they function.
In short the old board was split between companies, and that created the division that you moved away from, what I am suggesting is grouping them by the type of platform (console, handheld etc) which eliminates a lot of that division.
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Post by SixHousePull on Jul 6, 2013 18:15:39 GMT -5
Let's definitely keep the discussion and suggestions going, but tbh, I am unsure as to when any of it would be implemented should there be changes anyhow. There is still a lot of work to do just in moving things from one site to the next. I will be honest when I say that after 4 years I still do not have a good idea as to how to set the boards in a way that keeps the forum open in the community the way we want but also makes it easy to find the topics and discussions one may be looking for.
One of the last times the admin team got together and exchanged thoughts and ideas we had decided to keep the Gaming Section broken down as it was and topics would be made or moved by staff to the section that made most sense based on how the industry/developers/ general gaming public advertised them.
For the time being, my suggestion is to keep things as they are until we can better focus on it. If the full staff were available I would find it easier to break some things down and have a couple of us working things over from the old site and getting it boarded up properly and a couple tweaking things here. Atm, we dont have that option, and we are still finding things that will need to be done as we go.
Keep the topic up. Keep suggestions rolling. Lets just keep in mind we still have other things to work atm.
Personally, Im not against a PC board and a console board. If things get sub forumed from there, well, thats where the heaviest discussions will be.
I dont want to back burner this, but for me its nearer to the bottom on the list of things to do.
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Post by nobody on Jul 7, 2013 1:30:13 GMT -5
I figured that it was best to figure it out now so when stuff gets moved over it could get moved over right into the new sorting, instead of moving it over here, then rearranging it later down the line.
The following is bound to come off much less nice then intended. but I say the following as a (mostly) logical unbiased analysis of the facts.
on one hand you want to board to be disingenuous to what it really is. Specifically designing the layout to hide the off balanced views of its members, and at the expense of the current users experience.
How many new (active) members have we gained since the board layout was changed as opposed to before it was?
IMO the biggest issue with having new active members is the way individual topics are handled. Having huge 10+ page topics on games, and having very little discussion outside of that is very intimidating for someone new here. and it was the other major thing I mentioned at the end of my 1st post here. Its one thing to have the occasional OT (Official Topic) and have those extend to ridiculous lengths. but that is all the board is made up of. there is no smaller discussions going on that are easier to jump in and join the discussion without feeling like you are jumping in the middle of something thats been going on for pages and pages. and splitting it by genre also doesn't help moving away from that. with genre based boards its much harder to have more misc topics that arent purely about 1 specific game.
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Post by CobaltMonkey on Jul 7, 2013 3:25:00 GMT -5
I figured that it was best to figure it out now so when stuff gets moved over it could get moved over right into the new sorting, instead of moving it over here, then rearranging it later down the line. The following is bound to come off much less nice then intended. but I say the following as a (mostly) logical unbiased analysis of the facts. on one hand you want to board to be disingenuous to what it really is. Specifically designing the layout to hide the off balanced views of its members, and at the expense of the current users experience.
How many new (active) members have we gained since the board layout was changed as opposed to before it was? IMO the biggest issue with having new active members is the way individual topics are handled. Having huge 10+ page topics on games, and having very little discussion outside of that is very intimidating for someone new here. and it was the other major thing I mentioned at the end of my 1st post here. Its one thing to have the occasional OT (Official Topic) and have those extend to ridiculous lengths. but that is all the board is made up of. there is no smaller discussions going on that are easier to jump in and join the discussion without feeling like you are jumping in the middle of something thats been going on for pages and pages. and splitting it by genre also doesn't help moving away from that. with genre based boards its much harder to have more misc topics that arent purely about 1 specific game. I know what you mean when you say that, but I want to head off what it looks like you're implying before it gets misunderstood. What it looks like is that you're saying we are trying to trick X-box gamers into coming here. What you're actually saying is that we don't want to run them off because we appear to be an all Sony forum. The difference here is that we are absolutely being true to what the board is meant to be; a place devoid of console prejudice where people can just talk without console fanboyism. We are not "hiding the off-balance views of our members" because that is our only view. The problem is that we are indeed more populated by players with mostly Sony consoles. This leads to the true misconception that that Microsoft console players aren't welcome. Now, what does this all boil down to? If we want to achieve that goal of universal acceptance we have to, yes, make it appear as though we are more varied than our current users would make it seem. We are misrepresenting what we're made of to truly represent what we stand for. Or rather, we're not withholding that information so much as we are reinforcing its irrelevance. It's an important distinction. I like the idea of Console, PC, and Handheld forums. I think that it provides enough clarity of what to post where while only placing a separation where technology is different enough to warrant different kinds of topics. Even those simple divisions may lead to the same problems between those platforms as were between Sony and Microsoft in time. But I do think this is the best option for the time being. How we handle individual topics is a matter of clutter control, but I do see your point. The problem is that if we let people make threads about whatever, then eventually it's going to be a confusing mess. If people would actually bother using the Search button before they posted it probably wouldn't be such a mess. Yet most places I go online, no one seems to have figured that out. Of course, at the Nation our Search button always sucked. Bad. Hopefully this one will work better. Ideally, I would love to see each individual game with its own board a la subreddits. Little room for confusion there. It would be very obvious what game you were talking about, at the very least. But that is sadly impractical. The real problem is that this line of thinking is from the perspective of a small forum. We don't want 20 threads about the same thing because there are few of us here and we would quickly get sick of seeing it. If we want to grow, then we do need to get out of that thinking. But if we try to do that while the forum is still small we just end up with that very problem. If we were a big forum we would churn through posts, and while those reposts would be annoying to most core users there would be enough different people populating the boards to brush it off. But we don't have those numbers right now, so trying to behave like we do only leads to annoying those who are already here. It's a catch 22. |
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Post by nobody on Jul 8, 2013 2:49:48 GMT -5
that distinction is irrelevant. My point is that you (the board in general) are sacrificing the actual active users experience to try to appeal to a wider audience. if you want to try to appeal to a wider audience that is fine, but dont do it at the expense of the experience of those loyal to the board. and just because they will deal with it doesn't mean its right.
there is a difference between what it is meant to be and what it actually is. and by off balance views I didnt mean individual views were off balance, but the total views in general are. as in the amount of people with sony based systems, and pro sony views way off balances the other side of things. there isnt an equal view between users.
of course your not withholding information (did I say that?...I mean that as an actual question. I may have and if I did I didn't mean to) you are just altering the lens with which it is seen. shining light on that which you wish to stand out most. and in general there is no issue with that. where the issue lies is when you are making the people who are around and active and keep this board afloat to try to bring more in.
and for the record most of what I have been saying is almost directly in response to something specific six said in this topic. (not familiar enough with this board yet to make the quote say who its from so the next one is from six earlier)
that basically translates to having to choose between being open to new members, and making it easy to find the topic and discussions for the current members. and my response to that is that if you have to choose one or the other it should be in favor of those loyal, and not to theoretical new comers.
That being said I do think all of the above is irrelevant, because I feel like the 3rd suggestion I made in the 1st post appeases both courts. all of the above was just because I love a good discussion even if it isn't tied to the problem at hand.
its not the same thing at all. anywhere you go online you can likely find a fanboy for microsoft or sony, or any individual system. but can you find someone who is a handheld fanboy? consoles are a little different especially when it comes to consoles vs PC (and im sure you are aware of the PC vs consoles issues over at D1P when it comes to that sort of thing) but as far as consoles vs handhelds go its a non issue.
IMO your making it into a bigger deal then it is. it is not a big deal if the same thing comes up multiple times so long as there is discussion to be had. and as a small forum you dont even need a search function. all that you need to do is check the 1st page or 2. and if there is some sort of issue with it they can always be merged.
your not going to get 20 threads about the same thing simply based on the fact that your user base isn't high enough for that to even be an issue, not unless someone is spamming, but thats a whole different issue.
Honestly I think having more smaller topics and not just being purely about whatever specific thing is being discussed for certain games would help stimulate the activity even within just the regular users. for example as is now I only have 3 or 4 topics I care about checking. I used to care about borderlands 2, and uncharted but I stopped checking them at all once I moved on past them. take borderlands 2 for example, the OT as is now is for everything, from players getting a group going, to trading, to discussion on the base game and or its various DLCs. if you had separate topics you could have discussion of a certain DLC entirely self contained within it self. without having the discussion interrupted or taken off track by those interesting in doing a raid, or talking about what awesome loot they just got. each conversation is able to run its full course without 1 over taking the other. you can write a review of a game and post it in its own topic instead of buried in the hundreds of pages of the game, and people can respond more directly to your post. and it would create a discussion for people to say what they also thought about it, what they thought of your opinions of it as well. and it would have a relatively short life span most likely due to the fact that a lot of that discussion would likely already of taken place in the OT, and if thats the case then it would be around for a bit then get bumped off the 1st page to be forgotten. it would shift things much more to what the board is interested in.
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Post by CobaltMonkey on Jul 8, 2013 3:52:50 GMT -5
The distinction is important for understanding the spirit of what you are saying. Without making that distinction it simply looks like an insult. Again, I know that is not how you meant it. But that is how it reads. Interpretation of tone and meaning are difficult to convey online, but still very important.
No. The very reason this forum was created was to avoid that problem. "This is a call to all" was our original tagline for a reason.
I don't believe there's a single user here who would say any different. If there is, well, they're the definite minority.
But again, because this board was an initial catch-all for many groups after meeting up at the rapidly decaying MyRes site, a site about a single console exclusive game, most who came here owned and gamed with their friends on the PS3. We understand what that looks like. That doesn't change our view.
The "lens with which it is seen" shows the truth despite the appearance.
We're not making anyone do anything. Presumably, they are here because they want to be. It's the internet. We can sort of lock them out, but we can't possibly lock them in.
Again, it ties in with our shared view of becoming a place for all gamers. All that involves for them is talking with their existing friends here and being open to making new ones. Well, and making suggestions/giving feedback about how the staff can better facilitate those things. We trust users to give us feedback (such as this) and they have to trust us to do the best we can with our resources and manpower. If they come forward and say that they want us to abandon what we've been doing to draw in new users in favor of catering to only a small, tight-knit group we would have to do what we could. However, I will point out that this is the first such request I've ever seen.
Fanboyism wasn't the point there. What I meant is that if a new user is interested in talking about handhelds in much the same way that a X-box user might want to discuss console exclusive games, they will likely see a comparatively inactive board just like the X-box boards used to be. Phone games that few people I know of would want to discuss in depth aside, the handheld market is pretty small. Which means this is unlikely to have such an effect any time soon. Hence the, "I do think this is the best option for the time being." from me earlier.
Right now, it's unlikely, but the goal is not to stay this size. However, perhaps you're right. It would be a growing pain we'd have to deal with later, but if we had to we could always deal with that when it comes up. Would love to hear the thoughts of others on this.
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Post by nobody on Jul 8, 2013 4:14:57 GMT -5
there is a difference between coming here to talk primarily about something and talking about it on the side. I certainly dont expect the mobile boards to be very popular at all, however it is something that most of us have on top of all other actual gaming platforms, and it provides an isolated place to discuss them without them intertwining with the other stuff (for lack of a better term)
what I was suggesting in terms of restructuring how topics are handled has little bearing on the size of the forum. regardless of if you have a small user base or a large one, the results are the same, the only difference is the rate of discussion. and how quickly things get moved off the front page.
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